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TOPIC: The one that got away - for now

The one that got away - for now 07 Dec 2013 14:58 #1083

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Take a look from 20 minute mark. A bit more color on the one (deal) that got away. :cry:

I can understand the reasoning behind establishing a local sales organisation after such a negative experience.

Hopefully CC is right about the 3rd largest Japanese Big Pharma (Astellas?) testing CYTX's commitment. Hopefully they will finally realise that they risk losing more by not doing the CYTX deal than dwelling on a poor quarter.

He was right about the Chinese being more driven to complete the deal.......... especially the Overseas Chinese such as Lorem Vascular's Lim.
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The one that got away - for now 07 Dec 2013 17:18 #1085

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Amazing - the stuff you find John.

Have to chew on this one- the first taste is- a kind of "cultural excuse" for not having struck deals so far. Than again it does have a lot of interesting information. Will come back on it.

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Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

The one that got away - for now 07 Dec 2013 23:24 #1087

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Wow is right! I learned so much from this. John do you know who did the interview and who is the intended audience.
Thank you John for sharing this!

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The one that got away - for now 07 Dec 2013 23:27 #1088

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So I think this is a daughter of a Cytori executive doing the interview

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The one that got away - for now 08 Dec 2013 09:34 #1089

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Very enlightening. Great find!

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The one that got away - for now 08 Dec 2013 09:41 #1091

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I thought the body language was quite interesting. :evil:

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The one that got away - for now 08 Dec 2013 11:15 #1092

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Great contribution. Many thanks. The confirmation of the global vision at the end of the second part – very affirming. :bye:

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The one that got away - for now 08 Dec 2013 19:57 #1093

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A couple of questions...

Does CC know this was recorded? Odd camera angle and very casual in dialogue. Interesting to say the least. Why provide this info in a student-esque interview but not educate the shareholders? This bothers me.

I get the sense that he's too laid back. Perhaps I'm wrong and maybe the interviewer is someone that is family or a family friend. But who posted this and when was it recorded?

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The one that got away - for now 09 Dec 2013 10:16 #1097

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Looks to be a university course project around the subject of ''International business and the impact of Cultural Differences''. There were a number of interviews with executives from other companies with the same broad subject heading on YouTube. I would guess that it was a child of a Cytori executive or family friend of some higher level executive.

CC looks straight at the camera on a number of occasions, so I do not believe that he is unaware of his being taped. However, he may not have been aware that this would have been downloaded on YouTube, hence the candor and additional information we gleaned from this clip.

Obviously these sorts of deal negotiations are very complex. What I find interesting is that the initial Japanese negotiating group got as far as they did but did not follow through even though there must have been a substantial basis for making the deal. The cultural problems between East and West when making deals is well known and was the basis for CC's misplaced enthusiasm. He does not seem very happy when recounting the episode so I am sure it hurt.

The interesting issue about culture for me with regard this deal was the inability of lower/mid level management to push through the deal.
I do not think that the data they had in hand (Astellas - liver?) was marginal so that they would have given up so easily. For me the cultural problem was the inability of lower level executives to be vocal advocates of their beliefs. The Japanese salaryman affliction of always kowtowing to those senior to them as the reason for this failure.

Does anyone think this deal can be resuscitated. At one stage there were 7 partnership deals being undertaken. CC's reticence in making comments regarding deals does not mean they are not in the works.

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The one that got away - for now 09 Dec 2013 15:25 #1098

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I do not think that the data they had in hand (Astellas - liver?) was marginal so that they would have given up so easily. For me the cultural problem was the inability of lower level executives to be vocal advocates of their beliefs. The Japanese salaryman affliction of always kowtowing to those senior to them as the reason for this failure.


John- I have no worries about Astellas- they will come sooner or later and the deal will be very broad.

Listening to the tape again- there was a massive amount of information provided, which makes it all rather easy and the one thing I know about the "The one that got away- for now"
was that it was cardiac. So solution of the really simple riddle is : Daiichi Sankyo Co.

Fits with the numbers and data provided and they are heavily in the blood stream/cardiac apps.
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The one that got away - for now 09 Dec 2013 20:17 #1099

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Cardiac should have been a big pay day. I still say his body language was very telling...twice the way he handles and shuffles the papers on the table with a slight nudge away at the end.

Astellas has been a very long wait...who knows how much longer.

What about aesthetics application ? Time runs out at year end. Any thoughts ?

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The one that got away - for now 10 Dec 2013 05:34 #1102

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What about aesthetics application ? Time runs out at year end. Any thoughts ?


Cytori Therapeutics (NASDAQ: CYTX) has entered into a $15 million three-part agreement with Bimini Technologies and its affiliates, Puregraft Technologies and Kerastem Technologies. First, Cytori has sold global manufacturing and commercialization rights for the Puregraft® product line. In exchange, Cytori has received a $5 million upfront payment and will receive up to an additional $10 million from commercial milestones related to future Puregraft® sales. In addition, Bimini has acquired global, exclusive rights to commercialize the Celution® System for Alopecia (Hair Field). Under the commercial agreement, Bimini will be responsible for all clinical studies, regulatory approvals and market development activities for Alopecia and will pay Cytori perpetual royalties on sales. Finally, Bimini has acquired an exclusive option to license Celution® products for the global aesthetics market. The option is effective until December 31, 2013.

Yes- I do have some thoughts- actually I discussed a similar topic at LinkedIn in the "Patients for Stem Cells" group.
Somebody posted a really old stale link on the RESTORE study and at the end Dr. Rodriguez jumped in and wrote the following-

Dr. Ricardo Rodriguez (Leeza´s husband): This article, as correctly pointed out refers to the Cytori study. There are some implied inaccuracies. The repair is not of damage caused by cancer, but of the damage caused by radiation therapy. Fat grafting by itself can reverse the damage in radiated tissues, largely because of the high number of stem cells in fat grafts. Obviously, extracting the SVF (Stromal Vascular Fraction) from fat tissues, which is what Cytori did, will give better results. The problem is Cytori is too expensive. GID is another company that has a much smaller and economical device and is approved for use in Spain and there are clinical trials going on in there. I have an IRB approved study here in Maryland with funding pending Johns Hopkins IRB approval (for the MR tracking by Celsense fluorocarbon particles).
In the US there are many surgeons treating radiation damage in breasts using fat grafting only.

My answer: Dr. Rodriguez - I fully agree with you on your judgment for Celution to be too expensive for breast reconstruction let alone augmentation. That is like coming up with a Bentley for something that requires a Beetle, also since low DRG rates are involved. I always expected Cytori to come out with an adjusted product, but they apparently dumped the project. In 2010 Koplin wrote in an article: Another approach will be Cytori's upcoming CellGraft product, which will be similar to its earlier Celution System in size, but on top instead of a centrifuge will be a seesaw-like device that will inject saline solution plus enzymes to digest the fat and prepare its output for cosmetic surgery applications. These machines, which are certified in Europe but not in the United States, are eagerly awaited by US-based physicians. Also, this approach creates a very small amount of stem cells—a teaspoon, Koplin says, containing no fat cells. www.plasticsurgerypractice.com/news/17824-lawrence-m-koplin-md-facs-on-fat-grafting-2
Than again- some of tech used in this machine apparently led to the development of the new generation Celution device, which will be desktop and cheap (10K$), but than still will be an overkill from a technology perspective for this application

So my conclusion: Bimini CANNOT have an interest in the present machine. Surely however will be interested in the new generation device from a cost/efficacy perspective.

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The one that got away - for now 10 Dec 2013 05:54 #1103

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Just a comment about the obvious fact that the person who put the interview on YouTube was "ordered" to remove it. :whistle:

Confirms my personal view on Chris Calhoun- Chris is an nice and honest guy, who tells you a lot of truth and expects you not to be able to do very much with the information he provides. Sometimes he is making mistakes there.

On the whole though- with the developments going on in Japan, obviously Chris WILL be successful and all that have been written on this page will come true.

You will be glad one fine day for hanging in there.

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The one that got away - for now 10 Dec 2013 07:45 #1104

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I have to agree that the present Celution product is too expensive so I guess they let their option expire and until the new cheaper product is available... perhaps they revisit.
Of course licensing the hair loss application was a strange one in my view...obviously they think they can do something with it...besides a free 5 million never hurts.

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The one that got away - for now 11 Dec 2013 10:23 #1113

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Hedge- as a manager of your own hedge fund, you will know that an option normally as a time element i.e. expiration date and a price tag.

These are former employees who know the value of the technology and if they will let this ride, they have to come back and negotiate the license again.

Possibly - the license might be a lot more expensive when the new generation Celution is out and the "world" starts ordering.

To be honest- if anybody wants to start a commercial business treating patients, its hard to comprehend why they wouldnt want to wait 6-9 months longer or require a deep deep discount on a 800 machine. :winky:

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Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

The one that got away - for now 13 Dec 2013 09:15 #1122

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***Hedge- as a manager of your own hedge fund, you will know that an option normally as a time element i.e. expiration date and a price tag.

These are former employees who know the value of the technology and if they will let this ride, they have to come back and negotiate the license again.***

Correct...but in using a option to help manage risk...you dont always exercise.

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The one that got away - for now 16 Dec 2013 12:01 #1132

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The story was so good, that I wrote a blog post about it




Here at the Racoon Blogs :nice:
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Board moderator and Site-owner. I still regret the day I started analysing the prospects of MacroPore (now Cytori) back in 2004- a left-over from the tech-bubble at that time from the century change in my portfolio- and became addicted to Cytori´s fat cell technology. :cry:

The one that got away - for now 16 Dec 2013 15:30 #1134

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I have to agree with some of the comments expressed by Michael on your blog post.

Namely for me, I dont trust one word on the reasons expressed by management on the ATHENA 1 delays and the need for ATHENA 2.

Also I doubt Japans ramps all that much anytime soon....and I dont think fixing leaky wee wees will provide much help as sales for that indication likely drip along... LOL

BARDA...who knows...but our short friends should be able to handle any action on that front with maybe out right Celution purchases hurting some of their arguments.

Lorem at least gets someting out of Cytori's hands...we will see what they can do with it.

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The one that got away - for now 17 Dec 2013 05:33 #1136

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Hedge-

I personally think ATHENA has nothing to do with landing a potential partner deal. I am sure the 9 clinical studies have to take care of that. We- the shareholders- should get informed on what and where on that score.

"Your leaky wee wees" I do find a bit degenerative on a serious issue. I must admit that I had expected most - lets say >50% of mild cases treated to be continent now- but than again- I do not know if that is realistic. What amazed me was the scientific commentaries of scientists working on competitive treatments. They were EXTREMELY COMPLIMENTARY on the results
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The one that got away - for now 17 Dec 2013 08:16 #1138

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Obviously I didnt lay out the context of my post very well as I agree ATHENA is not related to a deal in Japan...especially since cardiac was included in the Lorem deal.

I will not use the "leaky" *&^ *&^ term again to make sure I do not offend. That said..I repeat my previous comments on that subject that I personally felt the data wasnt that impressive.

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